Susan Werner takes a swing at musical theater by writing songs for ‘Bull Durham’

SUSAN WERNER

It’s a jump that few singer-songwriters have made, and even fewer have made successfully. Susan Werner has written the songs for “Bull Durham,” which begins previews at The Paper Mill Playhouse in Millburn on Oct. 2, with the official opening night on Oct. 12, and the last show on Nov. 2.

It is her first musical, and before she was presented with the opportunity, she says, “I did not foresee something like this coming to me.”

Ron Shelton, who wrote and directed the 1988 “Bull Durham” film — which co-starred Kevin Costner and Tim Robbins as minor-league baseball players, and Susan Sarandon as a woman who is romantically interested in both of them — also wrote the book for the musical. It premiered in 2014 at The Alliance Theatre in Atlanta, but there were reportedly significant changes before its 2024 run at The Reynolds Industries Theater at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina.

An Iowa native and longtime Chicago resident, Werner is well known on the national singer-songwriter circuit and has been releasing albums for more than 30 years — including a series of what she calls her “travelogue” albums, influenced by the music and the culture of different places she has traveled to.

I talked to her recently by phone.

A poster for the 1988 film “Bull Durham.”

Q: Do you remember the movie from when it came out? Did it make a big impression on you at the time?

A: Oh, I remember seeing it and I enjoyed it plenty. Yeah! And then I was playing a show at Joe’s Pub in New York in, like, 2010 or something. And these people came up to me after the show. It was a man and a woman, and they talked to me and said, “Hey, we really like your songwriting.” I said, “Oh, thanks.” And they said, “Have you ever thought of writing musical theater?” And I said, “No, not really.” And they said, “Well, we think you could do it. Because your songs have sort of the hallmarks of what musical theater songs do.”

They said, “Maybe come in and talk with us.” So, I get a card. And it’s Jack Viertel, who’s at that time the Creative Artistic Director at Jujamcyn Theaters, which is one of the Big Three, or was at that time. And I went up for a meeting. And it sort of came up: “Well, do you like baseball?” I’m like, “Yeah.” They said, “Well, we’ve got the rights to this movie ‘Bull Durham.’ ”

I fell out of my chair. Because, first of all, it’s a story I recognized and liked. But also, I knew right away that this was kind of an all-American story, and had some legs to it, not only as a commercial endeavor, but as storytelling material: Strong characters, clearly defined, a conflict. You know, it’s a love triangle, right? And it was an easy yes. It’s hard work, but it was an easy yes (laughs).

Q: Did you previously have an interest in musical theater?

A: Well, of course, in high school, yeah, sure. I did that and I was pretty good at it. And then I went to college and did more opera. But sure, being on a stage — I’ve always been good at that, for some reason. And I enjoyed Sondheim’s writing. I always admired and enjoyed it because it was sharp and specific. But I did not foresee something like this coming to me.

I went to New York to meet with Ron Shelton, who wrote and directed the film. He also wrote and directed “White Men Can’t Jump” and “Tin Cup.” This guy’s a master storyteller. And I thought, “Well, this is sort of a big deal, this meeting. But I think it might be best if I just bring a wiffle ball and bat.” And we go out in the alley (laughs), and that’s what we did, and then we sat there over dinner and said, “OK, how do you throw a curve? Show me how to throw a slider.” Right? “Show me a four-seam fastball.” And because I know something about baseball — I’m big baseball fan, a lifelong Cubs fan — it was just great fun.

They say, “There’s no business like show business, there’s no people like show people.” And it’s true. I mean, they’re the best storytellers, they’re the most lively. They’re the best people at parties. And it’s been a blast to work on, and Ron is writing our book — in this case, the adaptation of a movie screenplay. And he just has such a great sense of how humans talk to each other. Real language: These people speak very much as themselves. They’re specific. And that’s what makes this so compelling. You’re rooting for these people, from the downbeat.

AUSTIN RUFFER

Ron Shelton in the rehearsal room for the “Bull Durham” musical.

Q: Did you work with him on the lyrics, or are the lyrics all yours?

A: I wrote the music and all the lyrics. But, I’ll write him an email and say, “Hey, could you just riff on this character in this moment? What they might say.” And then he’ll send a paragraph of this person just spouting. And that gives me a great jumping-off point. And in fact, I’ll often plug those phrases straight into the song. It’s the greatest energy-saving maneuver you can make as a lyricist (laughs), to get material from the person who knows how these characters talk.

Q: Right. You’re just translating, in a way, his story. You don’t have to make it up yourself.

A: That’s right. I’m musicalizing it, right? That’s the term people use in musical theater. And … if there are readers who don’t know, it’s a story about minor league baseball players. One is an aging catcher who’s getting to the end of his career, one’s a 20-year-old phenom — a pitcher with a million dollar arm and a five cent head, as one of the coaches describes him — and a woman who is, really, like a superfan, but also she knows a great deal about baseball. And she helps one player a season develop into their full potential as a player. And she uses every tool at her disposal, including, of course, her love life.

It’s great fun to watch, and it remains great fun to work on. And audiences … it just went great in Durham. I know we have something great for the Paper Mill audiences. They’re just gonna love it. One thing to tell you, Jay is that this show is a guaranteed good time. Which a lot of us could use right about now.

Q: Getting back to the process … were there times when Shelton didn’t like what you wrote and asked you to change or modify something?

A: Here’s what he would say: “I don’t think this character would use that word.” Right? He’d say, “I don’t think this character would put this that way.” He would just bounce that back, and then if I could (fix it) myself, I would. Otherwise I’d say, “Hey, could you just bounce on that for a minute, you know, just riff.” And that would usually reveal the answer.

Q: Is this basically the same as the show as in Durham, or have there been changes since then?

A: There’s always changes, and there’s changes in cast, and we’ve built out some dance pieces.

I’ve been working on this for so many years, but now, really, is the fun part, because so many of the big building blocks are right. They are secure. Now we get to dial in details. Now we get to make the pie higher, as they say. You can hear me smiling. This is the fun part.

The hard part is, like, the first three, four years of working on it, and failing a lot, especially as someone who has never written for musical theater. You know: duets, counterpoint, ensemble numbers. It’s a heavy lift for those of us who don’t have training as a composer that way. I mean, I’m a singer-songwriter, but to write for a full cast, and to write counterpoint and … you try to build towards an ending, build towards a button. Those are different skills, and it took me a while to get my head around those. As someone said at the start of it … I said, “Well, this is gonna take me a while.” They said, “Just begin failing immediately” (big laugh). So I did.

AUSTIN RUFFER

Susan Werner in the “Bull Durham” rehearsal room.

Q: Were there other factors that had to do with why it’s taken a number of years for it to be finished?

A: Well, COVID. That’s the big one. Another one: Our lead producer, the guy raising all the money … and we had the money. He was bundling the money for Broadway, and we were beginning to look for a theater, and he died of a heart attack. Just bad luck.

But then I gotta tell you, this show is about the unfairness of things, right? This show doesn’t button it up all pretty. It doesn’t end with a big World Series win. You know, that’s not life for most of us. Most of us kind of get somewhere towards where we wanna get, but maybe we didn’t get to the World Series in our own lives, in various ways. And then there’s this guy, you know, Nuke LaLoosh — Ebby Calvin LaLoosh — this 20-year-old pitcher who goes from Single A Durham to The Baltimore Orioles in one season because he’s that good. He’s that gifted.

Again, you know, life is unfair. And part of the power of this story is how you see these characters wrestling with that, trying to put it together.

Q: Has it been a challenge to balance your life as a singer-songwriter with this? To find the time for both?

A: I found it helpful to maintain my own touring career through this — with an endeavor as speculative as this. I mean, unless I had so many millions … if I won the Powerball the other night for $1.8 billion, or if I’d won the Powerball anywhere along the line, I could have simply decided this was going to Broadway. But that’s not how it works. It takes a long time to build the spaceship and then it takes a while to fuel the spaceship with money. So I knew going in, this was gonna take a while. So I’m happy that I maintained my own writing and performing career alongside it because, you know, it is speculative.

And, you know, getting to Paper Mill is a real accomplishment and cause for celebration. I’m thrilled we’re in there because it’s giving us an opportunity to really lock down the nuts and bolts and make this thing absolutely waterproof. And again, it’s been a delight. We’re getting close to it all getting really solid, from start to finish. It’s exciting to be at this point.

CURTIS BROWN

Carmen Cusack and Nik Walker co-star in “Bull Durham” at The Paper Mill Playhouse.

Q: Of course, that Paper Mill is a place where a number of musicals that have been there have gone on to Broadway, or other big things. So it’s a nice sign that it’s going to be there.

A: Yeah, we knew that, when we got the call about Paper Mill. We were like, “Oh this is so good!”

Q: Are you going to come and see it here?

A: I’ll be there the first weekend because it’s previews. I won’t be there after that, but I’m gonna come back later in the run, to see it.

Q: Are there still times when you get a call saying, “We need to make a change here” or “We need to do this or that. Can you write a little bit, or change this or that?”

A: Oh yeah. Constantly. I’m actually home in Chicago this week. I was in New York for rehearsals last week and then I go back for rehearsals next week, but this week I came home because I could see that the things I had to work on, I could work on from home. And in my office, I just know I have all my stuff. I can do the strange routine that is necessary to write.

I have my to-do list, which is: I use these giant Post-its that you can get at Staples, right? You stick them on the wall and you write down all the stuff you’ve got to do. I love giant Post-its. So I write the list of things: I have it on my wall right now. I’m looking at it. You know, “Solve the connection between the ensemble women in the opening number to Act 1, Scene 5.”

And when I’m home, I have a volleyball I kick around in the office. I have juggling balls. I have a red rubber ball. I have a Fun Team Tub of Dubble Bubble and enough Trident bubblegum to kill a horse. Just because I don’t smoke. But I want to go fast, right? So I chew a lot of gum and I walk around my office, and I’m sure people looking in the windows would think I’m not right in the head. But I’ve just got to solve the problems, and this is how you solve the problems. You just walk around and keep trying things out, until something feels right.

The cover of Susan Werner’s “Halfway to Houston” album.

Q: So is there anything going now in your music career? Anything good happening with that?

A: There’s always good things happening with that. Last year’s project was called Halfway to Houston. It was Texas-themed in topic and in musical styles. I have family in Texas now — in Houston and in Corpus Christi. So I did what I’ve done for all the travelogue projects — Cuba, New Orleans. You just go, and you’re by yourself, and you wait for the musical styles to attach themselves to a narrative, or a concept of some sort.

Halfway to Houston had the good fortune of winning Record of the Year at the Folk Alliance International Conference in February and that was really rewarding. I wrote songs (for it) with Sara Hickman and Tish Hinojosa and a guy named Southpaw Jones from Austin. So I think it was the fact that there were so many different musical styles, but also the authenticity of the language, because I wrote with people from Texas.

In my little world, it’s a big deal, that honor. I’m happy for it, and thrilled by it.

The Paper Mill Playhouse in Millburn will present “Bull Durham” through Nov. 2. Visit papermill.org.

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